You are going to DPS very, very slowly. Now… and by slowly, I mean FUCKING slow. If you get aggro, it means you are going to lose 50 DKP, coz you didn’t know what the fuck to do.


We’ve all seen the Onyxia wipe animation and wondered how anyone can stay in a guild with a leader like that.  In an interview with Dives, the actual raid leader from that sound clip, he says that people take it because “they know I’m right”.  Interesting, but probably correct.  I thought I’d have a quick post about the differences between casual and raiding guilds.  Please keep in mind, by raiding guilds I mean that it is a guild that only worries about progression, nothing else.  There are probably a few thousand guilds like that in the world, all others will be “casual” guilds, even the ones that raid seriously.  Allow me to demonstrate the differences:


Casual Guilds

-members want to have fun

-WoW is a game in the end

-Real life happens

-Please try to be there

-Social environment, friendly attitudes

-Raiding MAY happen, but it is not a focus in any specific way… not more than any other aspect of the game


Raiding Guilds

-members want to progress in content

-members join because they WANT to raid, not to “have fun”

-Real life happens, try to plan accordingly

-Be there.  You signed up to be there, not to miss events

-Raiding environment, raiding attitudes


Casual raiding guilds are really just casual guilds with a bit more focus on raiding.  I read a lot of blogs that are about casual raiding guilds.  Often the bloggers talk about the friendships they’re making, the fun and friendly and supportive atmosphere, and inevitably they complain about missed raid nights, a lack of focus and a lack of attendance.  Casual raiding guilds pride themselves in not being bogged down by hardcore raiding schedules and that people show up and raid WHEN THEY WANT TO.  Raging Spears on Coilfang (Cowtch’s guild) is a casual raiding guild.  Raids rarely happen as planned and very rarely with the people who actually claimed and said they would be there.

Some people want the casual atmosphere.  People who don’t play often and are only there to chat, to do a quest or two, to run a battleground, gain a level if they’re lucky, etc… This is probably the rarest type of player because most of us get addicted once we start playing and grind methodically at whatever task we assign our minds to, be it raiding, pvp, gold earning, Loremaster, exploration or general achievement hunting.  Or, heck, maybe you like collecting rocks, or dressing your toons in funky ways, that works too!

The next step up is a casual raiding guild.  Weeeeelll I’d love to raid but I don’t want to commit 4 nights a week and all my play time to it! Great have we got a guild for you!  Join, show up if you have time, but if you don’t nobody will bitch at you!  Cool story, bro.  Casual raiding guilds almost always fail because the few people who like to raid get frustrated that the other casual raiders are not showing up, they end up not raiding anything except old outdated content and eventually the slightly more serious raiders get pushed into hardcore guilds leaving their old casual raiding guild completely devoid of people who step up to organize raids.  Usually, some of the earlier slackers WILL try to step up, some raids will happen and new casuals will be pulled in, and the cycle will end up repeating itself endlessly.  10mans today allow casual raiding guilds to slack on the 25man front but still have small specialized groups succeed in 10mans, thus extending their longevity.

And finally the hardcore raiding guild.  This guild exists only to raid.  Whether the atmosphere is fun and social or completely silent and devoid of emotion doesn’t matter.  People join that guild to raid.  Nothing else.

Where you going with this Latus?

Right here I promise!

Angry Raid Leading

Casual guilds could never get away with an Onyxia-wipe-like attitude.  Anyone who organizes a raid has to understand the people participating are in it to have fun first and foremost and to maybe kill some bosses and MAYBE get some gear.  We all love gear. Mmmm gear. Omnomnom.  If you start swearing at people for failing and for being terrible at the game in your casual raid, I can guarantee that most of the raiders will not return ever again to your raids.  YES THEY’RE TERRIBLE AND BAD AT EVERYTHING, YES THEY STAND IN FIRES!  THAT’S WHY THEY’RE NOT IN A RAIDING GUILD!  If you are in such a guild and are lashing out at people for failing, leave the guild or change your attitude.

Hardcore raiding guilds on the other hand are a different story.  This is not to say you should be mean and rude and an asshole on vent if you’re leading one, only that it’s understandable that the language and tone of voice will be different than in a casual guild.  You have 25 people who joined your guild to raid because they wanted to be above the casual fail crowd.  They showed up on time, they know their class, they know the fights and they are good players.  If this group of people fails, it means they are completely failing at the purpose for which they got together.  They didn’t sign up to this guild to “have fun and some good lols” for however many nights a week.  They signed up to RAID and KILL SHIT.  And phat loot, always phat loot.  So if that Warlock stands there staring at his screen instead of teleporting away, or some Hunter bites a healer with the first bite on Blood Queen, or your healers decide to stand in fire all together, you are wasting everybody’s time.  Yes, your death may be spectacularly funny and people may laugh, but you’re still wasting precious time.  A raiding guild is like a part time job (or full time if you’re hardcore enough) and nobody likes to have people waste their time at work.  Get in, do what you have to do, get out and go home happy.

We all love to clear a raid without dying because it makes us feel like it was time well spent in a productive manner.  Well, hardcore raiders feel the same way.  If they can clear ICC without a wipe, that’s their job very well done.  If they wiped 10 times because of a new recruit… that recruit is gone.

That being said, I can see what Dives meant by “they know I’m right”.  I haven’t been called out in my new guild yet because I’m so pro or hide my fail very well when it does happen, but here is the way my brain reacts to anyone getting bitched out over vent.  Also, our raid leader is fairly tame compared to some raid leaders I’ve heard, but I’m sure not one of the tamest ones either.

Situation: green ooze stays alive too long on Putricide, repeatedly.
1st: Raid leader: DPS pick it up, this ooze is taking too long to die.
2nd: DPS, what the fuck are you doing. Kill the fucking ooze!

You know what, it pisses me off to hear it.  Just because I’m one of those super nice raid leaders myself.  Granted, I’ve never led a hardcore group.  But still.  I would personally not do that.  BUT, I know he’s right.  DPS was unbelievably slow.  And when the 16 dps in the raid are there BECAUSE THEY DO DAMAGE IN A PROGRESSION GUILD, and the damage isn’t being done, they deserve to be called out.  Sure, it usually means only a couple people are slacking or messing up.  In that instance, we had a regular mage struggling hard after a 2 week break from raiding and we had two new recruits who probably didn’t realllllly know the fight.  Checking logs also showed some of the regulars were inflating their dps by not switching to the green ooze at all.

That little analysis there?  That’s great and useful after the fight.  During the fight… WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING DPS??? is much more direct and to the point.

Our shadow priests were called out on the LK fight for dying about 3 times each.  Yes, it probably stung (I don’t recall the words but you can imagine).  Yes, one of them started defending himself on raid chat.  But in the end, we all knew as well as they did that they messed up 3 times.  That means they cost the raid a wipe.  That means they failed at their part time job.  This wasn’t “How many times can you die in p3 so we can chuckle about it!” night, this was one of three regular raid nights. 

Finally, it seems some people only respond to being called out.  I prefer being shamed into bettering myself (by my own standards…  low dps, a death, failing to recognize some mechanic about to happen) than bitched at.  I don’t handle being bitched at very well.  BUT, if I joined a raiding guild to DPS, and I’m failing at DPS, and I claimed to hell and back that I can avoid Thebad in any boss fight… and I don’t do that, then I do deserve to be called out and chewed out.  WoW is an emotional game in which we are all highly invested, it’s not unusual [to be loved by anyone…] to find that emotion boiling over and transforming into blunt commentary.

I don’t think there’s a real point to this whole point that I could use as a summarized last paragraph other than : if you join a raiding guild, expect the atmosphere to be different from a casual guild.  If you don’t like that concept, don’t join a raiding guild.  If you can’t accept nor handle more emotional raid leaders, either look very very hard or just accept that you’re probably not cut out for a progression guild.  Don’t be the warlock that does 2k dps in ICC25 and gets asked to be a backup and ragequits never to be seen again instead.  Know what you’re getting into, know what you’re worth, and act accordingly.


5 Responses to “WHO THE F***”

  1. 1 Tania April 2, 2010 at 6:53 pm

    I like standing in fires.

  2. 2 latusthegoat April 2, 2010 at 7:10 pm

    Your head is on fire. That’s different.

  3. 3 Anthony April 2, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    I think a lot of people want their casual raiding guild to have all the success of a hardcore progression guild, but without the stress. The simple fact is that doesn’t work. The moment you start raiding with your main aim being to kill stuff, rather than just enjoy the experience, you have to expect to take some crap when you fuck up or fail to listen to commands.

  4. 4 Emily April 3, 2010 at 2:00 am

    The guild I’m playing in now is sort of in that position. It is casual, there aren’t really any penalties for missing a raid, though they get mad when people skip on progression. They started kicking people out for it.

    I don’t like it when people that come from hardcore raiding guilds join casual guilds. nope, don’t like that one bit.

  5. 5 Tania April 4, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    Oh, my fire helm doesn’t count as standing in fires? Damn, I should work on my raid awareness and start looking for things to stand in rather than things to get out of.

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